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#21
jen

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Rick said:

How many people are not buying LE because it doesn't support VR
VR Devs wouldn't look for Leadwerks since it's not known to support VR in the first place. It's not so much a question whether Leadwerks should support VR to satisfy its current user base, rather Leadwerks should support VR to attract a portion of a growing market.

Rick said:

is that number really a game changer in revenue
Yes. The VR Market size is huge and the future projection is even more advantageous. That's where the massive revenue potential for Josh is. Not in this theoretical RPG Maker Franchise non-sense.

#22
Rick

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Doesn't the equipment that josh is targeting cost like $800+? That's a heavy investment right up front for such a market where those people are already buying consoles at similar costs and gfx cards at half/quarter the cost every few years. VR has traditionally always been fools gold. Unless he's targeting mobile VR devices,  much cheaper, it would seem surprising that the big VR vendors is the bread and butter.

As for the first part that's what my statement means. How many people pass up,on buying LE because it doesn't support VR? I know Josh mentioned upgrading certain things for PC gives VR for free and that's nice but will adding VR mean josh can hire more employees? If not then we have potentially a worse LE experience as this is another area to take Josh's focus away.

#23
jen

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That's not really a massive number considering people have bought computer equipment for games that cost more than that in that past. I don't think today's consumers, especially gamers are careful with their money. And also, don't forget the potential of VR in terms of entertainment, people think it's amazing how VR offers them a true realistic gaming experience. They truly think they live in the future. They've already spent a ton of money just to experience a game on a flat screen, they'll spend even more just to experience the next thing.

Personally speaking, VR is not all THAT mind blowing. I've only had a quick experience with VR for phones and those felt really cheap. Even then I was amazed. I don't know what Steam VR or Oculus are like though, I can imagine they would be more interesting and fun, definitely. I paid $20 for my Phone VR headset, that's $300+ cheaper than the proper Oculus VR equipment.

#24
Rick

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Yeah if it's the mobile VR support, which it didn't seem like it was, then I get it as you'll have the numbers because it's cheap. If it's the big vendors then you'll have less numbers. Remember an LE license cost the same for everyone so Josh needs quantity of users to make money. That was the issue with mobile support. Very few people bought it and it didn't seem to drive in new people either. If regular mobile didn't how is big vendor VR going to drive in the qty?

The reality is when you don't charge royalties then you are selling dreams to people who don't know how to make games. There are a lot more people who don't know how to code or do art but want to make games. It's basically a large % of gamers that fall into that category. If you add mobile VR on that then sure I get it but the big vendor VR I have a hard time seeing that being a big factor in profit.

#25
gamecreator

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Leadwerks Game Engine - VR Edition DLC
Though it might be a turnoff to have to buy 3 different versions and if I remember right, Josh wasn't a fan of complicating the process.

#26
devcjohnson

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I always viewed having LE tied to Steam limited its adoption in things other than hobby/indie/academic targets.  I work in the casino industry during the day for the last decade+ and installing Steam is not a thing that is going to happen.  Obviously the casino industry is not a target demographic for LE but even Unity has special licensing for casino content created than the Free, Plus, Pro, and Enterprise license due to the money it makes and requires contract negotiations.  I mention Unity only because it is what casino game development are using these days in most of the major player game studios moving forward from legacy in-house engines.

I paid $100 for LE3 std, $100 for LE3 pro, and I would pay and additional $200~$500 just to be able to ditch being wed to Steam...and yes I am aware of running Steam in Offline mode; not my point.  I am surprised I haven't been charged for an upgrade to LE4.3...which I would clearly pay until such time as I outgrow what I need from this product.

It has also been my understanding there is no mobile support moving forward with LE 3+ on because Josh doesn't believe it is profitable for a variety of reasons that may or may not be fact.  If this is the case then mobile VR can't be a possibility.  I also remember console support was written off because the dev rig cost and licensing for PS, XBox, etc. prohibits it being anything more than an advertising gimmick because the average hobby/indie/academic target I mentioned previously is not going to have this kind of access.  That can only mean VR for the PC.

I want to point out that I really enjoy LE even when I dislike it - despite being geared at people whom have no experience making games, it is VERY capable of making them with someone that does.  As a "hobbyist" game maker off hours I think highly of LE but it seems very narrowly focused.  I am clearly not the primary demographic being targeted so none of this is a slam on the product or the business of LE.  Just an observation.  

Wished I was able to attend the hangout personally but prior scheduling prohibited it.  Thanks for the summary though.  I find this stuff interesting.

*Note:  My mention of Unity is not for promotional value.  I believe Unity will collapse under its own weight from trying to do and be too much to all things which is one area Josh nailed correctly.  Anybody using Unity professionally will understand what I am referring if they are not emotionally tied to a tool.

#27
Josh Klint

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I don't think making a VR tool for game developers is a great idea as far as uptake / sales go.  The market is just too tiny to make a $100 software package for VR game developers.  This is why I never released the Oculus implementation I had working early on.  For large clients, supporting VR does make sense.  It is very easy to sell companies on Leadwerks VR because it has some really major advantages (described on the VR page).

You are correct that academic and business customers will want a standalone version that does not require Steam.  That means I have some freedom with the pricing and payment model, since a standalone is not currently offered.

@Rick, the game templates I have planned is what you are describing, without writing a new piece of software for each genre.

#28
Rick

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View PostJosh Klint, on 20 March 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

@Rick, the game templates I have planned is what you are describing, without writing a new piece of software for each genre.

That's nice but at first glance it seems like it won't be enough value to charge for. I was just thinking about how leadwerks can get more revenue streams going so that you could hire people and expand the business given the comment you seemed to have made on the hangout about if it was a monthly charge you would have been able to do so.

#29
jen

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devcjohnson said:

I paid $100 for LE3 std, $100 for LE3 pro, and I would pay and additional $200~$500 just to be able to ditch being wed to Steam

Yea, no, that's not happening.

You are aware that for that price you can just buy a brand new laptop and run steam on it? You can carry the laptop with you to work.

No one, unless they're a professional studio, would be willing to pay for the $500 price tag. It's silly that you would even entertain the idea. The main reason why U**** changed their pricing model to subscription based is because their $1000 pricing for pro-edition, before the change, was scaring their potential users.

The reason why I purchased Leadwerks is because I got it during the 75% sales. Never would I have paid the full price if it weren't for that sale.

No disrespect to Josh, I know he's put a lot of work into the software. But personally, I wouldn't pay the asking price, and not because it's not worth the asking price but because normal University students aren't expected to throw that much money around.

#30
Josh Klint

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I do not have any plans for a subscription model at this time.

Steam sales are good, but they are very erratic.  Making half the sales during December each year is not good, and I think it's pretty likely they will go the way of the iOS App Store when Steam Direct hits.

#31
devcjohnson

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View Postjen, on 20 March 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

You are aware that for that price you can just buy a brand new laptop and run steam on it? You can carry the laptop with you to work.

No one, unless they're a professional studio, would be willing to pay for the $500 price tag. It's silly that you would even entertain the idea.

I would like to point out specifically that I went out of my way to qualify my entire input that I am not Josh's target demographic.  On this note I would like to point out my intent is not to hijack the thread either.  What I can do is influence the next generation of tools for the places I work if they make sense.  Right now the tech is there but the business model and the product design to support the business model is not anything I can pitch in my circles.  So it is just a toy for me at home.

I already have five gaming laptops, three gaming rigs, and every console available right now, including the dev kits.  I would pay the money just to not have to carry around yet another piece of hardware as it is.  Again, I am NOT the target audience and tried to qualify as such without sounding arrogant or pompous.

Sticking/Picking on Unity since it is the biggest Indie tool on the block right now...My point was that LE can display in scene rendering that will bring Unity to its knees in its editor, even with the Enterprise edition.  This is not how Indies or professional use these tools.  They use them as deployment platforms, e.g.  The engine is target and everything is done as a framework over the underlying API of the engine and the the number of platforms the engine supports may influence which choice you make.  If I am not clear then consider Unity is deployed as a C# platform with 2D/3D library and a virtual machine often times with a single game object in the editor in much the same way one would use Java or C# has the "platform" since they are VM's under the hood.

Josh never mentioned selling it at a $500 price point for stand-alone, I did.  That being said, for the demographic I am referring too, Josh can charge A LOT more than $500 and he knows this.  Fortunately though he is not catering to my demographic which is why I tend to shy away from these threads in general.

I was simply saying I am interested in where LE moves going forward as an engine and a business.  I was about to write it off myself as nothing more than a toy for personal use until hearing some of the things I have heard in this thread.  While I will not hold my breath I will not write off either.  When you consider money vs. technology and how these are used professionally, LE is forever relegated as a stepping stone to other engines unless his business model changes.  How Josh overcomes these issues is exactly why I will read his articles on Gamasutra or GDC conferences when they happen.

I mean no disrespect to anybody nor introduce any noise so feel free to IM me if someone has an opinion or wishes to hear mine regarding any input I submitted.

#32
Josh Klint

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It's interesting that one thing I said specifically in the hangout was that Leadwerks tends to attract beginners and experts.  People in the middle, not so much, but the extremes on both ends really like it.

This may seem like a contradiction, but I don't think it has to be.  It's just a new way of thinking we should explore further.  The ease of use is a big plus for both groups.

#33
Rick

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The beginners are looking for something easier than Unity which seems daunting from the outside and the experts are tired of Unity's issues so they are looking around. The middle is still putting up with Unity's issues. :)

#34
jen

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Software like U**** and Un**** often offer prefabricated pipeline that require users to learn. These pipeline tend to be very complex or unusual and thus have a steep learning curve. To experts this can be daunting since it means starting from square 1 again. Not necessarily to learn something new but rather change one's approach to game development. And because a new workflow is introduced by the software so does its users habbits and habbits are hard to let go off.

I can start using Un*** En**** right now but I wouldnt look forward to learning blueprints.

Cry ****** is absolutely free right now and it features C++ project solutions. It still cant beat the simplicity of Leadwerks' C++ API.

#35
tumira

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I think people in the middle loves C# very much. Lua is great but I would loves to catch my error at compile time rather at runtime and you cant really beat Visual Studio Intellisense and autocomplete. C++ might be a bit daunting but if you want to go to hardcore game programming that is the route.

#36
devcjohnson

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@jen @Rick @Josh - Exactly my thoughts from my humble standpoint.

I really wished I hadn't missed the hangout now without question.  I could NOT agree more with all three viewpoints.  Precisely why I have very high hopes for this product.  It is so extremely capable and even though I can't gain mind share with my circles currently, I keep coming back to it on my own time...which is way more valuable than what I get paid professionally...and I am not hurting and living a life long dream; getting paid to make games, middle-ware, and platforms.

My contribution is going to do what @aggror does (and why I am making a Patreon contributions to him monthly - hint hint if you are not):  He makes tutorials.  I am going to make games in rapid succession if for no other reason to contribute back to this community.  Having the beginners and the experts build the bridge so that the people in the middle make that "keystone" happen.  Unfortunately I am late to the game but I have seen what @Roland and @Rick (and a lot of others...@Shadmar etc) do and I will be doing the same.    

@Jen - You even inspired me to start going on-line making records of the journey.  I only started last Sunday though.  Go you trail blazer you!  You make a very expert observation of which I could not agree more.

Family calls so I will get off my soap box and just say this product, the community, and the intelligence of all is very refreshing and we are all on the same team of wanting something that works without limiting nor inhibiting accessibility.  I am relieved to hear Josh is being objective even though other decisions he has made I did not particularly agree with...he listens to his customers and he runs analytics.  He is being objective which I was not entirely sure of being this is a "one man show" if you will.

Apologies if I offended anyone - been very busy today.  I really do respect everyone that contributes.  Period.

#37
Josh Klint

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Thanks for the honest feedback guys, it is really useful.  I am very optimistic about our future.