Why OpenGL?

[VeTaL]

but why need to run LE on 2.0 SM cards ? i think .. 70%+ have SM3.0+ today, perhaps more ..

Maybe it depends on the country, but i perhaps (and see) that less

[Canardia]

I invented a new marketing trick:

 

Say on the box: PG-18 and PG-SM4

 

You need to explain it also:

This product is not allowed to be sold for people under age 18 and for people who don't have a SM4 capable video card.

 

And suddenly everyone wants to have a SM4 card, because they want to be cool and adult!

[Naughty Alien]

A small market share is one valid reason.

 

well..as i said previously, its about 35 million machines available and able to run LE system..sure, those numbers are not that great if you are EA who has consumption larger than some countries yearly budgets..but none of us here is like EA and for small studios up to 25-30 folks, thats quite nice market with not much competition in area..i do believe its worth to go there..

[Niosop]

This post and the comments on it are pretty interesting. The comments by sinbad (of Ogre3D) and Aras (of Unity) seem pretty reliable to me since both engines have both DX and OpenGL rendering systems and are cross platform, so they don't have a vested interest in promoting either.

[Marleys Ghost]

Very intersting read Nio, thanks for that

[VeTaL]

So, you are criticizing Microsoft's support

What version to use? DX9? Do you want a new DX9 engine in 2010? If you want DirectX 11, that means no support for XP, which is still the most popular version of Windows, even among Steam users. Then when support for more platforms is added, the entire renderer has to be rewritten. That also means no support for Shader Model 3 cards.

but you're doing in the same way: you give no support for middle-end hardware. This means the losses 30% of gamers (for 2008 year), who would play a game. Now it may be 10%(maybe, even higher in west-Europe countries like Ukraine and Russia), but i dont think that even 5% is good.

 

 

I was going to code on my notebook (msi gx 600, with GeForce 8600M GT, 512MB), but i got

Leadwerks Engine 2.31

Initializing Renderer...

OpenGL Version: 2.1.1

GLSL Version: 1.20 NVIDIA via Cg compiler

Render device: GeForce 8600M GT/PCI/SSE2

Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation

DrawBuffers2 supported: 1

32 texture units supported.

GPU instancing supported: 0

Shader model 4.0 supported: 1

Conditional render supported: 0

No instances, low FPS... Then i tried to move on my PC (ATI x1950 Pro) and got

Leadwerks Engine 2.31

Initializing Renderer...

OpenGL Version: 2.1.8544 Release

GLSL Version: 1.20

Render device: Radeon X1950 Pro

Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.

DrawBuffers2 supported: 0

16 texture units supported.

GPU instancing supported: 0

Shader model 4.0 supported: 0

Conditional render supported: 0

It even dont run, crashes when compile shader... Looking like its time to upgrade my hardware. Its not a large problem for me, but i'm afraid that it can be a large problem for final users.

 

PS: Answering your question on the top of this post, i can say: yes, i want users with powerful machines see the great picture that Leadwerks provide, but also i want users with middle-end hardware see middle-quality picture.

[VeTaL]

well..as i said previously, its about 35 million machines available and able to run LE system..sure, those numbers are not that great if you are EA who has consumption larger than some countries yearly budgets..but none of us here is like EA and for small studios up to 25-30 folks, thats quite nice market with not much competition in area..i do believe its worth to go there..

+1

[Marleys Ghost]

what do you define as middle-end hardware ?

[VeTaL]

Videocards, that:

- give pretty good picture in Aliens Vs Predator 2010, Modern Warfare 2 and Stalker (my PC, with ATI x1950 Pro)

- and very good picture(well, not so good as Leadwerks, but not so far) in Dark Void, Hawks, Necrovision (my notebook, with GeForce 8600M GT)

[Marleys Ghost]

M'kay, I meant what sort of hardware spec. (CPU/GPU/RAM)

[Marleys Ghost]

but you're doing in the same way: you give no support for middle-end hardware. This means the losses 30% of gamers (for 2008 year), who would play a game. Now it may be 10%(maybe, even higher in west-Europe countries like Ukraine and Russia), but i dont think that even 5% is good.

 

 

Maybe of interest.

[wh1sp3r]

when you make a game there will be more suitable computers ;-) hehe .. after .... few years.

[VeTaL]

Notebook: Intel Core 2 Duo T7500 2,2/ Intel PM965 / 2048 RAM / NVidia GeForce 8600M GT, 512MB

Computer: AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 3800+ / 3 Gb RAM / Radeon x1950 Pro

 

Its just mine configurations, in bug-tracker i can add some more configurations, where i tested Leadwerks and got bugs/artifacts, but this is not bug thread.

 

Maybe of interest.

15% is worse then i expected (i thought it would be 10%), but thanks for link.

 

PS: i may repeat, even 5% isnt good, imo.

[Marleys Ghost]

Notebook: Intel Core 2 Duo T7500 2,2/ Intel PM965 / 2048 RAM / NVidia GeForce 8600M GT, 512MB

Computer: AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 3800+ / 3 Gb RAM / Radeon x1950 Pro

 

 

Did the demo run ok?

[VeTaL]

Not all.

On the notebooks there are very low FPS in Train and Forest demos, and on the computer there are some artifacts with lights in Tunnel demo. On both there are some crashes while loading scenes (for example, i tested right now and train demo crashed).

 

The main idea why i'm asking about this, is

 

 

I was going to code on my notebook (msi gx 600, with GeForce 8600M GT, 512MB), but i got

Leadwerks Engine 2.31

Initializing Renderer...

OpenGL Version: 2.1.1

GLSL Version: 1.20 NVIDIA via Cg compiler

Render device: GeForce 8600M GT/PCI/SSE2

Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation

DrawBuffers2 supported: 1

32 texture units supported.

GPU instancing supported: 0

Shader model 4.0 supported: 1

Conditional render supported: 0

No instances, low FPS... Then i tried to move on my PC (ATI x1950 Pro) and got

Leadwerks Engine 2.31

Initializing Renderer...

OpenGL Version: 2.1.8544 Release

GLSL Version: 1.20

Render device: Radeon X1950 Pro

Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.

DrawBuffers2 supported: 0

16 texture units supported.

GPU instancing supported: 0

Shader model 4.0 supported: 0

Conditional render supported: 0

It even dont run, crashes when compile shader... Looking like its time to upgrade my hardware. Its not a large problem for me, but i'm afraid that it can be a large problem for final users.

[Marleys Ghost]

Not all.

 

But did the demo run ok on the system you wanted to code on?

[Josh]

The X1950 isn't supported. Your GEForce 8600 is fully supported. Please go to www.nvidia.com and download the latest drivers for your card.

[carlb]

the 86000 is a mobile so you need to get you driver from here

 

http://www.laptopvideo2go.com/

 

as it a mobile it will be slow and has less core then the full desktop version

[VeTaL]

Okay, lets finish this discussion... As i understand, Leadwerks must work on all videocards, that supported SM3? Then, looking like everything must be ok.

 

I'll add some bug-reports with cards, that supposed to be supported( 7600 gt is looking like supported, but we got 3 FPS in editor as on the first post in this thread) to bug tracker, hope that would help to improve this great engine.

 

carlb, thanks for link: i always downloaded drivers from msi official site, now i'll try new one.

[Marleys Ghost]

Okay, lets finish this discussion... As i understand, Leadwerks must work on all videocards, that supported SM3? Then, looking like everything must be ok.

 

I'll add some bug-reports with cards, that supposed to be supported( 7600 gt is looking like supported, but we got 3 FPS in editor as on the first post in this thread) to bug tracker, hope that would help to improve this great engine.

 

carlb, thanks for link: i always downloaded drivers from msi official site, now i'll try new one.

 

 

" An NVidia GEForce 7000 or ATI Radeon 2000 series graphics card is required. An NVidia GEForce 8800 or ATI Radeon 3870 graphics card is recommended."

[VeTaL]

But did the demo run ok on the system you wanted to code on?

No, thats the trouble: i wanted to play with Ricks server-client architecture ( http://forum.leadwerks.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3807&hilit=mmorpg ) and when i launched it, i got 10 fps on server and 5 fps is server and client works both.

 

" An NVidia GEForce 7000 or ATI Radeon 2000 series graphics card is required. An NVidia GEForce 8800 or ATI Radeon 3870 graphics card is recommended."

Yep, but 7600 looking like higher than 7000.. Or you want to say that on video cards between 7000 and 8800, artifacts and low FPS is normal?

 

Then, dont forget to update main page

http://www.leadwerks.com/engine_index.html

"Leadwerks Engine requires a minimum of an NVidia GEForce 6 or ATI Radeon X2000 series graphics card"

[Marleys Ghost]

Ok, now I am confused, you tried the 2.3 demo .. it did not run well on the system you wanted to code on, so you bought the full version to play with Ricks server-client architecture ? 7600 ? thought your laptop was GeForce 8600M GT, 512MB? also what OS are you using?

[VeTaL]

I use Win 7 on notebook and XP on computer.

 

I bought full version to get access to community and to solve my problem with videocards, as i like Leadwerks picture very much. I said that upgrade hardware is not a large problem for me. I just wanted to know, how many users would be able to play game, that created on Leadwerks, thats all.

 

PS: 7600 is card, where i tested leadwerks and got 3 FPS as on the print screen.

[Marleys Ghost]

Just out of curiosity if you load the tunnels.sbx in the editor on the "Computer: AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 3800+ / 3 Gb RAM / Radeon x1950 Pro" turn on all FX's :

 

 

and the run the flythrough.lua from the in editor lua editor what sort of fps do you get ?

[VeTaL]

Totally, not bad, but those artifacts... Anyway, as my video card is not supported, this can be called great.

 

Thats why i offered a support of "old" videocards, that dont works with SM3. Tunnels are working, but terrain_arctic, train, desert are crashing. Thats what i wanted: to have a possibility to load it.