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jen

8192x8192 Terrain support

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I think 4096 is plenty big imo. You can always load different areas/maps to expand bigger and keep dev easier than trying to custom code something to handle a massive fps terrain + all it's content. Recently played Vampire the masquerade which loads areas in city, yes it's an old example but the gameplay is no lesser because of the map loading except maybe the loading time. I think 4096 is much bigger than what that has game too. But if you want to compare to latest AAA openworlds you would need a comparable dev team aswell just to come close. I guess if you are making all procedural game it's a different story but in general 4096 is plenty big for an indie game imo.

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Using gta 3 for any kind of comparison doesn't seem right to me. It came out almost 16 years ago. That being said josh has made it clear le isn't for those types of games so it's meaningless anyway.

The response was based on the question on how the size comparison worked in the picture that gamecreator posted. I responded since the initial math was incorrect for how LE's largest inherent map size compared to other maps in that picture.

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Very interessant things here.

 

I'm thinking about making an openworld game with work simulating as supplying, vehicles delivery, making money with driving from point to point, delivering goods to NPC or Industries, something like this, maybe little bit need of fighting or something like this. I'm not so sure about this yet.

 

I started with testing the limit of leadwerks capacity in a 2048*2048 map, it's much work to fill it, it's quite difficult to give an openworld a direction, because an empty world doesn't need to be open (like many sold games today I fear..)

Well I obtained for now many different models (not too big but good rich models), enterable houses or buildings, beautiful underwater shader (thx shadmar), swim, jump, inventory, day/night cycle, rain with collision, NPC's walking, driving cars, a little town..and much more.. everything scripted, right shaped, and I must say it let's be played very smooth.

 

I will fill this world until the limit..For now I'm very satisfied because I could have buil a not so rich world and it runs pretty good. Or I could have set more distance between the models if it would have been to heavy, but no.

I will post videos on how much it can support.

 

If you're curious you can find videos-demos through my signature here.

 

I don#t really understand why you can't build a just cause 2 with leadwerks but I know a good game does not need to be a large one.

Look at Gothic 1 or 2 for example such intensity is sadly becoming rare, and that was not big big big worlds, but such cult games are today still interesting, I think.

 

Sorry my english is not perfect.

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its content that makes a game good to play. I soon get tired of wanderingaround for ages with nothing happening.

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Leadwerks has 32bit floating point precision, so any terrain larger that 4096x4096 will have errors and jitter when transformed.

Since you can't move the terrain (and center camera) there is really no point in having a bigger one.

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Well there are two questions:

1- Is it technically possible ? -> this seems to be "no"

2- Do I need this ? -> Maybe for speed cars project games I could understand but for everything else I think it 's not absolut necessery...

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Regardless of the technical possibilities I think Josh/Leadwerks, as a business, needs to ask himself whether this is something to focus on. Leadwerks is meant to be generic in its purpose and not cater to such a specific feature. All the games mentioned in the above map have an inhouse game engine, tailored to deal with these kind of maps. Even if they would use the industry standard engines, they would still need a developer (probably a team) who deals with terrains in that size.

 

Nice to have? Sure, but lets be realistic here.

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I was just about to respond similar. Josh is a very smart guy and he could definitely make it happen. But we're nowhere near the point where it's a serious demand by any group of people.

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iv got no problem with people wanting larger terrains but id much prefer for some more needed things to come first like gui and the offline api.

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I read the whole topic, and I felt like needing something to say. I do understand why people want to make openworld games or big maps. As I started game development I always had huge visions too and thats a good thing. But I am wondering, why do you think: "I want a huge open world!" "Hmm map size is not huge enough." "Lets ask for huger map size!". Leadwerks never was meant to be, or is promoted as a open world engine. What happend that nowadays game devs seem to forget, that you can come up with tricks or workarounds. You can nearly create anything there is no limit. Its just how you handle it and it is about you designing your game well and beeing able to make compromises. So because I want my game to be able to be very big as well, I use kind of a cell system seen in the elder scrolls games. By the way, elder scrolls is a good example for what I mean. In oblivion there is no huge terrain it contains of diffrent cells, which get loaded once you enter them + low quality "far away" terrain. When I was thinking of really huge maps, I thought how I could realise it. Of course you have to make compromises, for example you need to place mountains or some kind of barrieres at the edges of your map and create places (caves, doors, canyons, etc) at the edges of the map where the player switches form one map to another, but I think this is ok and a lot of games, nearly all use such techniques to make their game work as expected. However for me the map size is just fine. One cell which can be nearly as big as San Andreas is enormous! So think about that maybe before complaining about the "small" map size. I hope everything is good to understand due to my not perfect english skills ^^.

 

Edit: or why not use a 2D Picutre as scenery for the edge of the map?

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Creating mountain barriers around the edges of a map is one way of stopping characters from falling off edge. I prefer water around edges so my terrain is a large island.'In real life if you w alk out into the sea far enough you may be in trouble. In my game you fall off edge of map if you venture too far out to sea. I am happy with that and anyway a ring of mountains looks unreal.

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You have to work with assets that are proportionate in size. A mountain can easily take up space in your terrain. You can squeeze in a mountain in a smaller terrain but it will look strange.

 

So it's not a question of "putting in contents where you can to make use of the small size available" but it's a matter of perspective and having the ability to deliver a convincing game - and that's highly important.

 

 

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I wasn't unreasonable when I put up this suggestion. I looked at all the variables imaginable.

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Yeah but there definetly are options to use multiple maps to make your world larger and then just load another map as the player, comes to the edge of your current "not big enough" 4096x4096 map. How you make it immersive for the player/hide that another map is loaded is up to you. There are a lot of suitable options to do this. Just come up with something creative :)

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Gamers get used to normals as time goes on. The normal now is huge worlds without loading pauses. I'm not saying Leadwerks should did this. If Josh says it's not his goal with the engine then it's not his goal, but we shouldn't be shocked when people ask for this. Dems are gamers too and Leadwerks pulls in amateur game Devs. Nothing wrong with that but it comes with an ignorance around such things. As gamers they have expectations and as devs they have to learn certain things to understand what comes with those expectations.

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I am adding an option in the config file to enable 8192x8192 terrain in the editor.

 

I honestly think you got stuck on a problem on your tournament shooter and now you are trying to distract yourself by replacing content with an increased scope.

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Yeah but there definetly are options to use multiple maps to make your world larger and then just load another map as the player, comes to the edge of your current "not big enough" 4096x4096 map. How you make it immersive for the player/hide that another map is loaded is up to you. There are a lot of suitable options to do this. Just come up with something creative smile.png

 

Those would be considered "Instanced" sets of maps. Not exactly open world as gamers would pedantically complain. Little things like that can throw your goals off course because gamers, especially gamers, are unreasonable - why do you think they pay 60 bucks for an AAA title repeatedly knowing the next game is exactly the same as the old installation? Those subtle little features can make a sale.

 

I am adding an option in the config file to enable 8192x8192 terrain in the editor.

It's ok Josh I didn't really want to pursue this suggestions further. I just wanted to get my point across as a response to the recent posts. Although I wouldn't mind if you do add the option as I'm sure a few others won't either. Thanks.

 

I honestly think you got stuck on a problem on your tournament shooter and now you are trying to distract yourself by replacing content with an increased scope.

 

It's an odd one, the FPS shooter project I had. I haven't abandoned it, it's just on hold. There's no problem with it I don't think. I just realized something discouraging about creating FPS games, that they take more resource and are heavier on the FPS than any other game type. It's meticulous to create one.

 

The problems in my game can be remedied, I know workarounds, it's just tricky to apply because the margin for error is too small. For example, network must be pristine otherwise players will complain of lag, FPS must be consistently high otherwise players will complain (we've managed to fix this, I had a little more of the problem in the end), and lastly the graphics must be high quality since you're putting your players through the lens of their character unlike 3rd person shooters where the camera would hoover above the head and preview a different perspective to the player. It's safe to say that a Multiplayer FPS is NOT a project suitable for solo developers.

 

The mistakes made in the project were my own mostly. I could have prepared better. It was too late for that project and the problems in it are only creating more clutter so I decided to stop the development for a while and learn from the experience.

 

One thing I've learnt in the process (and thanks to you for this) is I've improved my project management schema, I'm recreating my framework from scratch and now it's a LOT more manageable.

 

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and lastly the graphics must be high quality since you're putting your players through the lens of their character unlike 3rd person shooters where the camera would hoover above the head and preview a different perspective to the player

One trick is to apply a cell shader to everything and it tends to make mediocre artwork look higher quality than it is. Not to call your robots mediocre, I thought they were great, but it's just a tip a guy in charge of a game studio bluntly told me.

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You should not use Leadwerks to try to make Oblivion, FC2, or any of those games in a single map. It is not suited for this purpose. No engine that allows access to all objects in the world is.

 

Can you explain this a little bit more ?

After trying a few things I don't see why a little oblivion could not be possible, for example.

Furthermore to get to see the videos examples of "The Zone" that has been created with Leadwerks just let think that something like Stalker is makable with the engine (is oblivion much more complicated...?)

 

thx

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