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More Lua for 3D artists :

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I think you are right !

But there are lot of little games on Iphone made by one guy indeed.

And the Ogre 3D game : Salvation Prophecy is a one guy project, even if he has baught and asked custom 3D models !

One guy is possible, you don't need to hire for 3D graphics a guy on your team, you can buy 3D models and custom 3D models :)

 

The other part is money income being one guy its' more easy to manage. I don't know how it can be if there is two guys : a 3D artist and a Programmer doing an Iphone

game ? How the money gained on the Itunes Store is split between the two guys ? Who is the guy that have passed teh contract with the Apple Store ?

 

And in Unity 3D forum i see regulary, little games made by people knowing basic script programming or aksing help on forums and making the game.

Or programmers using tricks to do a good looking game (like using cartoon style and graphics for example or simple graphics )

Examples can be Minecraft for example !

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again no one has argued against the point that one guy can make a phone game... i am working on one myself... but it still requires someone to do the programming... its even possible for one guy to make a PC game as well with LE as shown here on occasion but it still requires programming... this is not fpscreator and god forbid will hopefully never be...

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I'd also like to argue that **** and inconsistent art will still look **** and inconsistent on a mobile platform, not negating the need to have both programming and art disciplines on your team unless you are some kind of prodigy.

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@Laurens :

You should open your mind a little more : Minecraft , Terraria, Limbo uses simplest possible **** graphics ... and well they are big big sucess no ? And there is a PS3 interesting title using vast sand landscape with the simplest graphics you could find also, and im' sure it will be a success.

I hope having a team is not a requirement to use LE3 :) ??

 

Yes, programming is needed, could it be Lua , C++ or any other scripting language.

I talk about basic simple programming , let's take some simple example :

If (input.key = "A") {

Camera.TurnX(5) ;

}

Even that for a 3D artist having some background programming. Indeed for someone that have never programmed , it could be hard to undertand i agree.

Myself i know a lot in Java, C# , i have done in the past some C, some Blitz3D and other basic language, so i have a good background.I'm not talented 3D artist, but i can do good things (for example using Zbrush, characters are easy for me) !

 

I just want to program gameplay, perhaps little additionnal custom things, but not shader or complicated 3D maths routines (i don't like maths) !

And if the engine allow me to prototype as fast as Unity3D in Lua it would be great.

We don't talk about templates at all here ... If templates exists they will be another part made by some individual users, and perhaps some people using FPS Creator for example could be interested to use them for modding. But yes we never said that LE3 should have templates at all , this will be to people to make them if templates must exist.

 

No we just talked about direct Lua programming without needing to manage entities, main loop, and framework for fast game prototyping or creation using Lua !

 

I think the threads turns not to talk about LE3 and Lua , but lot more around : "Artist Vs Programmer"

 

So we should speak about Lua in LE3 , talk about how it will work, how scripting system will be for entities instead !

The Vs debate idon't find it interesting , and each people believe in it's own believes until one day he sees the contrary

of its own believes, not all htings are full Black or Full White like each people believe it :)

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@Laurens :

You should open your mind a little more : Minecraft , Terraria, Limbo uses simplest possible **** graphics ... and well they are big big sucess no ? And there is a PS3 interesting title using vast sand landscape with the simplest graphics you could find also, and im' sure it will be a success.

 

I was not saying that. I was saying that **** art will look **** on any platform. Something that looks inconsistent on a PC will look inconsistent on a mobile platform as well.

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Yes , i agree !

I didn't understood at first time. Yes even with simple graphics , the challenge can be hard, if you can 't put consistent ligtening , graphic theme or textures brightness and composition.

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I just want to program gameplay, perhaps little additionnal custom things, but not shader or complicated 3D maths routines (i don't like maths) !

 

I think this is a misconception on your part. This is most likely a rabbit hole. "If I could only program the gameplay". Then if you get that: "If I only didn't have to do pathfinding". Then if you get that: "If I only didn't have to program this inventory system", etc.

 

The gameplay features you are wanting and seem to accept you have to code are much harder than having to code your own int main() function and come up with a game framework like you do now and like how you say is hard now. It won't get easier once you get into gameplay.

 

I'm not a math guy either which is why I like LE. Unity requires some math to even move a character but not LE! In LE I can just use the UpdateController function of MoveEntity and pass a number. So I think you are in the right place given that "requirement" you have, but just have to get into programming a little more :)

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About Gameplay programming i must have not explained well what i think about !

In gameplay indeed i htink in :

- Camear management

- Collisions

- Variables management

- Dialog System

- Inventory

- Character follwowing system or simple Scripted waypoint navigation system

- Character movement and specific collisions

- LOD or Region Hide/Show programming

 

All that depends on your game type, not all games requires all that features or sometimes simplified versions of inventory or other dialog system !

 

For me gameplay is all that, and i'm ok with all that.

What gameplay is not for me is coding lot of stuff to do simple things :

Some C4 Engine examples :

Push a Button part 2

Simple Character in C4

 

I know even LE2 is not in that way complex or we can do things lot more easily.

 

 

Yes i think each people will have to dig in rogramming even with script !

Or they'll have to buy some specific 3D engine or packake : FPS Creator, full MMO engine etc ...

For people wanting to do any type of game or something new , or including originality, indeed programming is needed.

 

I'm not waiting for someone to make an inventory system , or custom camera for me , i'll program it.

Perhaps with LE3 plugin system and new Lua way we will see some templates for some type of game, but that's not what i am waiting for ....

In my case i just would had perefrered an already integrated framework : entities heriting from some Init and FrameUpdate methods, and you having just to place them on the world editor

and specify the Class that would drive them.

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I think it is always going to be artist on one side of the room crying about how hard it is to program and on the other side of the room there will be the programmers crying on how hard it is to model.(ok maybe we are not really crying)

 

If you are good at something you should stick with it and leave the other stuff up to the people who are good at doing the other things. If you are worried about income, a team of two people that know what they are doing in their own fields of work WILL no doubt be able to create more games and content than the lone wolf that is really good in one area but average to poor in another.So the two that work together will most likely make more money.

 

I am not sure if LE3 will allow the little guy to compete against the big studios. We all have our hopes and dreams at what LE3 can or will do for us.

I think that one thing it will definitely do is help a one man band or even a small team of people make a prototype of a game very quickly. And maybe once you have your prototype game finished you could then find financing to hire out the people you need to make a (big studio)game.

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Simple Character in C4

That's simple? :)

 

I really doubt you are asking for code like that, since I can't even make heads or tails of it. I think you just want a finished game you can play around with, which is fine. Let's just be honest about what we're talking about and call it what it is.

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Wow, that C4 code made me cry even worse. It's a prime example of why I think Leadwerk's has a giant edge over the competition. Josh does not enforce some paradigm on us like C4 does.

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What gameplay is not for me is coding lot of stuff to do simple things :

Some C4 Engine examples :

 

I meaned some C4 Examples of what means lot of coding to do simple stuff :)

Yes i find that C4 is really the hell to programm !

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Ha, yeah, C4 may have some strengths but simplicity is not it. When I was looking around at engines, that character code is the very thing that made me realize C4 is not for me.

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..i found out that Phyre , on twisted PS3 hardware, is more user friendly than C4..as for artists whos thinking about making decent game without programmer, and putting high hopes in to some (any) engine abstraction data/code management, i highly recommend to wake up..of course, you can do mocking up around with it, but soon as you step in to something with certain responsibility (finished game is just one part of whole show..maintenance, updates will do some serious time, and in certain situations is even needed access to source, and you will have to sign that as a part of contract with publisher, if game reach any certain stage where publisher is interested)..to sum it all up, if you rely on flowgraph structure only, with given set of obligations to perform, and you will if you cross line i described, then i say, better make sure you have programmer in team..

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.. as for artists whos thinking about making decent game without programmer, and putting high hopes in to some (any) engine abstraction data/code management, i highly recommend to wake up..

I couldn't agree more. We all tend to start off thinking if only we had tools to simplify this and tools to simplify that so we don't have to put loads of work and often experiment with generic tools that are available and dream of ones which have yet to be invented. However, we quickly start to see the limitations and the price we have to pay for using such shortcuts and those with the stamina for it move on to just doing the hard work. That's what gets the games made in the end and stamps your individual style on them. Sure some things can be aided by good toolsets but having good artists and programmers on the team is not something you are going to be able to compromise on without severely compromising your game. A good programmer will build toolsets customized to your game and tweak and expand on the engine in order to get that extra mileage out of it to add that essential polish and make your game stand out from the crowd.

 

Sure you can produce simple games on your own and with minimal programming and artistic skills but that's as far as you'll get without adding specialists to your team.

 

In my humble experience the people that succeed in making games are not those who say 'if only I had this I could make my game' but those who say 'I will make this in order to complete my game'. It is this difference that separates the dreamers from the achievers.

 

I am still walking the path from dreamer to achiever and hoping I manage to get there :) but have the utmost admiration for those who do.

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Getting ideas into 3D is getting easier because of programs like FPSC.The only reason I don't use them is because of the quality of the finished product they produce. They don't have enough features but are going in the right direction. Maybe LE3 will improve on this and bring people a Game Creation Environment which can be used to create high quality Games and Programs via the imagination without getting bogged down in 'how do I code it' side of things.

In my opinion, not enough time is spent thinking about Game Structure. People jump into making a Game before thinking it through sufficiently. Honestly, it can take years just to develop a good idea to the point where it can be materialised into some sort of usable form. People are in such a hurry to 'get it out' when they haven't really got it sorted within. The results are a formula.. As within, so without.

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I think some FPSC but more clever done : Using 3D tiles instead of thousands ot assembled polygons for each wall/ground would be lot lot better ;)

And a 3D tile is one object compared to lot of objects for making a room in FPSC.

I think some pople could propose basic 3D tiles that could connect between them and some sort of editor, you could place 3D assets in these 3D Tiles, Ennemies, ammo etc ...

And the player controls would be some template, and you'll would have different templates for ennemies.

Even with LE2 such editor could be done by some programmer, but well ... no one need such tool neither me , caus lot of us uses terrain instead of closed rooms also.

 

I think people that want productivity first, will be happy with LE3 coming with an open plugin system !

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