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Well humor me Macklebee, I'm trying to illicit some meaningful discussion here.

 

Like I said its pointless for me atm. But your advocacy to encouraged it baffles me. Piracy is the quickest and sure fire way to kill an indie developer's product. For example, LE was being pirated left and right before 2.2x. For Josh to do nothing about it, would mean a quick death for LE or at least the ability for him to continue to update/upgrade it. Letting people pirate something doesn't put food on your table. Just because there is maybe not a foolproof method, doesn't mean you do not try to prevent it. Its just like teen pregnancy. You will never stop it completely, but doesn't mean you shouldn't do your best to prevent it by education, or what have you... ;)

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Like I said its pointless for me atm. But your advocacy to encouraged it baffles me. Piracy is the quickest and sure fire way to kill an indie developer's product. For example, LE was being pirated left and right before 2.2x. For Josh to do nothing about it, would mean a quick death for LE or at least the ability for him to continue to update/upgrade it. Letting people pirate something doesn't put food on your table. Just because there is maybe not a foolproof method, doesn't mean you do not try to prevent it. Its just like teen pregnancy. You will never stop it completely, but doesn't mean you shouldn't do your best to prevent it by education, or what have you... ;)

 

Thus far I have you pegged on the extreme end of anti-piracy, while we have TylerH who seems to be on polar opposite. I wanted to see what your vision of a properly protected game is, because I believe I could use that to prove that your extremist view on the subject is misguided.

By the way, if you believe I have you pegged in the wrong spot then keep in mind it is only a reflection of what I have seen you say thus far.

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Thus far I have you pegged on the extreme end of anti-piracy, while we have TylerH who seems to be on polar opposite. I wanted to see what your vision of a properly protected game is, because I believe I could use that to prove that your extremist view on the subject is misguided.

By the way, if you believe I have you pegged in the wrong spot then keep in mind it is only a reflection of what I have seen you say thus far.

 

Well, you might have me pegged for that, but you would be wrong. Apparently you read things as you wish and not actually what was written. There is no way to prevent everyone in the world from doing whatever they want. Just not feasible. But how is me suggesting that someone should try to prevent pirating of their product, with full acknowledgment that it cannot ever be stopped completely, an extreme view? whatever... ;)

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The fact that you don't seem to be able to view piracy as anything other than a purely bad thing leads me to believe you have a rather limited and uneducated view on the subject. So its either stupidity or an extreme view. I choose the latter as you seem to be far from stupid.

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The fact that you don't seem to be able to view piracy as anything other than a purely bad thing leads me to believe you have a rather limited and uneducated view on the subject. So its either stupidity or an extreme view. I choose the latter as you seem to be far from stupid.

 

While you seem to only view piracy as a good thing which is not only ridiculous but prevents anyone from having a true open discussion about it. Do I think stealing is wrong? Sorry, I guess I do. You are right. I am an extremist. Your argument that piracy is a good thing for your product assumes that every person or even 10% of them that is going to steal it will eventually buy it. I highly doubt that number would be that high. So I guess my question is: whenever you actually have a game to release are you just going to give it away for free? There's no point to even charge for it with your point of view... just give it away. or better yet just put it on a torrent site yourself as the main form of distribution... it would be a nice gesture for others so they wouldn't have to take the time do it. But whatever... you do however you wish and good luck to you.

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Again! Again with the straight-down-the-line black and white view of piracy. I went back and read over my own posts just in case I was indeed being too pro-piracy for you to believe I have that view. But in so many of my posts I have highlighted both the good and bad things about piracy. Not once have you actually stopped and gone "Oh, hrm, you may have a point there, but I tend ot disagree here...". It makes me wonder if you're even trying to take in my point of view at all. Are you? If you really are keen on having the discussion then I implore you to go back and have a read over the previous posts and have a think. We may forever have different points of view but there has got to be at least one of the points I've made you agree with. If you do then please tell me, because I tire of this whole notion that if a person even considers (read: me) trying to turn something good out of something bad (piracy) he is instantly labelled a bonafide pro-piracy conspirator.

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Again! Again with the straight-down-the-line black and white view of piracy. I went back and read over my own posts just in case I was indeed being too pro-piracy for you to believe I have that view. But in so many of my posts I have highlighted both the good and bad things about piracy. Not once have you actually stopped and gone "Oh, hrm, you may have a point there, but I tend ot disagree here...". It makes me wonder if you're even trying to take in my point of view at all. Are you? If you really are keen on having the discussion then I implore you to go back and have a read over the previous posts and have a think. We may forever have different points of view but there has got to be at least one of the points I've made you agree with. If you do then please tell me, because I tire of this whole notion that if a person even considers (read: me) trying to turn something good out of something bad (piracy) he is instantly labelled a bonafide pro-piracy conspirator.

 

 

Just because you were stealing LE and decided to buy it (I assume since you actually have forum privileges), does not mean all your buddies at <website name removed> are buying LE or even 10% of them. Your argument seems to make more sense when I look at it from your perspective. It also explains your attitude in this whole post as well as others... like the fit you threw when you found out the scout viper was a protected asset.

 

 

**edit-- you are right. That last comment was unnecessary and purely a stab at you - so I removed it.

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And he comes in with a fan-tastic deflect! So instead of trying to participate in the discussion you choose to personally attack me. I see. Well I don't know whether I'm meant to be defending myself or the topic here. I'd like to defend myself, as I believe I have valid reasons, but somehow I don't think your opinion of me will change either way. Though it does make me a little disappointed that you think I'd do such a thing as release LE2.3. Have I not made it obvious that I care about the software and community here? Or was that comment purely just a stab at me?

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And he comes in with a fan-tastic deflect! So instead of trying to participate in the discussion you choose to personally attack me. I see. Well I don't know whether I'm meant to be defending myself or the topic here. I'd like to defend myself, as I believe I have valid reasons, but somehow I don't think your opinion of me will change either way. Though it does make me a little disappointed that you think I'd do such a thing as release LE2.3. Have I not made it obvious that I care about the software and community here? Or was that comment purely just a stab at me?

 

How is it a deflect? A person advocating piracy as a good thing, that obviously is/was stealing LE, is definitely part of this discussion. Its your whole motivation behind this post and others. It actually helps me understand your point of view why you think piracy is not a bad thing.

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Well it is a deflect in that you completely ignored what I said and put to you with another argument.

 

No matter though, you may be right in that this could help you understand my point of view -

 

So like the rest of you on this forum my aim is to develop a game and enter the industry. And like the rest of you I started out by researching all the engines out there to develop on. I didn't want to entertain the idea of buying a licence to an engine because I felt my skill level was way too low to be able to warrent any sort of investment into it yet. So I checked out and used quite a few different free engines (Ogre, etc). But I didn't really like em. I saw and tested the likes of Unity and all those. But the trials and demos don't come with the ability to look up their knowledge-base and wiki for free, and for a beginner that is critical. So there was no way I was going to dip the rather large sums of money asked just to take a look. In all honesty it is a pretty big gamble for one to take, and I believe a lot of these engine SDKs actually prey on wanna-be devs like myself who dip in the cash and grow bored of the product after a few months due to inexperience.

I did give LE 2.something a go quite awhile ago. I fell in love with the design concept of the whole engine, and the Wiki - It all made sense to me (Beginner C++ programmer) which was a real boon. But the trial was rubbish - It barely worked out of the box. And thats as far as I got with LE when I did my first engine hunt.

 

Then I saw LE on RLTeams forums some time later - By the way, that site showed up on a legit 'free engine SDK' search in google - and I thought hell why not and downloaded it. That was 2.26 I believe. And so I used that for quite some time, joined the forums, got involved, started to design and document my first game, etc. I think I decided about 2-3 months ago that I'd buy the engine - Why? Because A. I was going to need it if I was serious about publishing a game. B. I felt this was a genuine SDK and I knew I could grow with it. C. Although I didn't need to at the time, updates were something I'd like to have.

You are right in assuming that I bought the engine when the site launched though - I was literially about to buy it when I jumped on the forum and caught that thread about people starting to kick up a fuss about paying more for the up-coming LE2.3. I decided I'd leave it until then because I didn't want to pay up my saved money and then have to possibly face some huge hike in price a month later.

 

So, I hope that in all seriousness, you can better understand my point of view. That one can still pull in a pirate to pay for your product if you take advantage of the right things (The wiki, updater, etc).

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So, I hope that in all seriousness, you can better understand my point of view. That one can still pull in a pirate to pay for your product if you take advantage of the right things (The wiki, updater, etc).

 

I understand it alot better now. But you need to face the possibility that maybe you are the extreme case when it comes to pirating/stealing software. I am doubting that even 1% of the people that stole LE from that site or any of the others are now registered SDK owners. To do nothing about people stealing is to encourage them to steal. This is true for everything, not just software.

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Oh indeed, and I think the generational gap thing you made note of earlier plays a big role in this as well. I have grown up with the ability to download and use software in a fraction of the time and effort it would have taken to actually buy it, much less fork out the money. Of course sooner or later you realise that people actually live off of the proceeds of the bought software. And so I have now for a long time bought any software I believe is worth the money they're asking.

 

Maybe this is where this huge gap in opinion is between us. I've come from the generation where leeching is okay. I know what goes through the average piraters mind. I don't want for a second to advocate encouraging piracy. What I do want is the proper handling of piracy - Something quite a few developers/publishers seem to lack.

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whats to keep some schmuck from taking that DLC and posting it somewhere so others can get to it illegally... this doesn't prevent or discourage stealing at all...

 

I had the same reaction when I read it. But I think you need to take into account that he is a CEO and look at the high-level view of what he is saying, not the technical which he is bound to get dead wrong.

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I had the same reaction when I read it. But I think you need to take into account that he is a CEO and look at the high-level view of what he is saying, not the technical which he is bound to get dead wrong.

 

eh... I have found most CEO's are out of touch with reality and have no concept of what really even goes on with their own company or product... in any case, just a marketing ploy the way I see it to lessen the blow that even after someone has legally bought a copy of the software, they have to turn around and pay more for some small feature to supposedly make the game more enjoyable.

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